Digital Marketing

How can you get free traffic from Google? with Paul Counts and Shreya Banerjee

Episode Notes

Google ads, Facebook ads, pay per click, TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn – the list goes on. 

In an ever-changing digital landscape, how do you know which tactic is right for you and your firm? 

A key takeaway from this episode is that sometimes the old school marketing techniques still work, and this is what we’re talking about with Shreya Banerjee and Paul Counts: How to get free traffic from Google. 

Shreya and Paul are Co-Founders of Marketing Counts, serial entrepreneurs, Tech Startup Founders, and advisors to the influencers. They are teachers at heart who have a passion for helping entrepreneurs and students alike grasp proven marketing concepts.  

Paul and Shreya give listeners actionable tips on:

  • Why your firm should have a Google Business Account
  • How a Google Business Account keeps your content top of mind
  • Tips to get better reviews
  • What to put on your Google Business account to keep it updated with minimal effort
  • Why consistency matters and how it can be game-changing for your firm

Resources mentioned in this episode:


Connect with Paul here:

Connect with Shreya here:

Connect with me



[00:00:26] Paul: Hey everybody. I’m Paul counts here and I’m alongside with shrimp energy and we’re the co-founders of marketing counts, a digital marketing agency. And we’re so excited to talk all about. Marketing and how you can get free organic traffic 

[00:00:39] Karin: from Google. Awesome. I’m excited to have my first, uh, dual guest.

[00:00:45] So it’s going to be fun on the clips to have both of you guys in the show and have a nice kind of more well-balanced conversation where it’s not just, you know, to me and one other person is going to be great. Um, [00:01:00] Thank you for being here to begin with. And I know that we’re, this is going to be a great conversation.

[00:01:03] We started talking about this for a minute ahead of time, and I know this has comes up all the time with my clients. And so, like you said, today’s big question is how to get free traffic from Google. So it sounds a little click baity, you know, it sounds like, oh, I’m not sure like that. What, what, you know, that doesn’t sound.

[00:01:26] You know what everyone else is telling you in terms of like, you need to be spending tens of thousands of dollars on pay-per-click. Um, but I’ve had these conversations over and over. And the last, I’d say couple years, especially, uh, talking about focused on local and all of this good stuff. So that’s what we’re going to get started.

[00:01:45] So, uh, who wants to open it up to who wants to start talking about first of all, what are we even talking about? Free traffic from. 

[00:01:53] Paul: Yeah. So one of our favorite things we love to teach us and talk about is that we’re not, we’re not going to talk about the hottest, [00:02:00] latest trends. You know, what we like to joke about is we’re going to talk about the, not so hot marketing sales, because we’re not 

[00:02:07] Shreya: flashing of flashy and unfortunately, or fortunately, however you want to say it.

[00:02:11] We’re just not flashy, but it works. What we do works. It has worked for many, many years 

[00:02:16] Karin: and it’s going to contain. Yeah. So you’re not like the dazzling, your proposals and putting all the playing. And I think that’s, that’s important because, uh, a lot of that bling and flashiness is just smoke and mirrors is, you know, another way of saying like, okay, we’re just going to talk about all of these terms that are gonna go way over your head and you’re not going to even understand it, but it sounds important.

[00:02:39] So maybe we should just throw money at it. Um, so tell me what, what is this that we’re talking about and then how. 

[00:02:47] Paul: Yeah. So we’re talking about Google business profiles or whatever Google decides to call it. They seem to change the name. 

[00:02:54] Shreya: Teddy. I used to be called. Yeah, it was Google 

[00:02:58] Paul: right. And [00:03:00] Google business profile.

[00:03:00] But it, regardless once they decide, and it used to be Google maps before that, so it always changes. So it’s always transitioning. But the main thing is, is that you can get a profile on Google. Now, a lot of you listening probably already have this, but there’s so many little nuances. Yeah. Um, if you don’t definitely get one, but there’s so many different nuances.

[00:03:20] I mean, we just had a client, like we just got the notification that, you know, over 20,000 free visitors from Google business, right? Like that’s a lot of visitors and guess what? It didn’t cost them a single penny. And that’s why we love this form of marketing. Yeah. As you know, current is you can reference with, with attorneys.

[00:03:39] It is very expensive to run paid ads. 

[00:03:42] Karin: It’s the most expensive, I think it’s, uh, if it’s not the most expensive, it’s one of the top, most competitive, most expensive keywords that are out there. So, uh, it’s if you can avoid playing that game and just throwing money into [00:04:00] the fire with that, uh, then you should, and this is the way to do it.

[00:04:05] What used to be called Google, my business now called Google business profile, whatever this thing is, it’s about having your little profile account thing on Google. And then how are you, um, how are you guys working with your clients to kind of keep that, uh, at the top of the mat pack and the top of the results and all of that stuff.

[00:04:26] And how does. Yeah, 

[00:04:30] Shreya: you have to keep it updated. That’s one of the biggest things, uh, lots of people say, you know, one time it’s done, that’s it a lot way to keep it up is to get reviews from your clients. Uh, and then also get updates, post pictures, post, even if it’s not for somebody to look at you in front of your clients to look at it’s for Google to see that, okay, this place is updated.

[00:04:54] The business is updating their profile. So if you keep it updated and have all the fields filled out, chances [00:05:00] are you’re going to be up there. One of those top three showing up on Google 

[00:05:04] Paul: profiles. 

[00:05:05] Karin: Oh, go ahead. I was just going to say, I was going to ask for more clarification on the post updates because I know what we do on our end, but what does that mean for, uh, for you?

[00:05:15] Paul: Yeah. So for us, there’s the update feature. So if you’re looking at Google at a Google business profile in the back end, the back side from Google, there’s a section right below it that says updates, like literally post updates. And it’s like the second field. Well, Google puts that there for a reason because they’re trying to encourage you to use it.

[00:05:34] But 97% of people, I mean, a crazy amount of people never touch it. And what that is is like, if you’re going to go out there and make a Facebook post or an instant. You might as well, just make a very quick post, like, Hey, come on into our office today. We’ve got a special going on or here’s a picture of our office dog or whatever the case is.

[00:05:52] Put it in there because what ends up happening is if somebody is looking at another attorney’s profile and that’s, you know, a competitor of yours, they’re [00:06:00] going to see oh, businesses like yours also just said this. And so it’s so critical to have those updates. And so few people do it. I don’t care what kind of business you are.

[00:06:10] You need update with those types of. And Sreya referenced another, um, the importance of updates, right. And another really good one is the COVID update right now. A lot of businesses are missing that, and Google has made that a priority because they’re going to prioritize a business based on the COVID update.

[00:06:27] So. You know, we cleaned the door, handles like whatever you want to say, whatever. 

[00:06:32] Karin: Yeah. A lot of firms are offering, you know, they’re just putting it in a little notice saying, you know, obviously we care about your health and blah, blah, blah. And we offer zoom meetings if you want it. And that’s really all you need to do to have just basically a notice.

[00:06:47] And, um, you know, that, that matters. It’s an update. It refreshes it. Google cares. A lot of what we do with our clients is, uh, in terms of those updates, it’s just [00:07:00] when you are creating blog posts, which you should be doing anyway is putting those blog posts on Google. And there are, we use software where when we have one blog post, it goes out to all of the different social media.

[00:07:12] And that includes the Google. You know, it used to be Google plus or whatever. What do we want to call this? Google? Let’s just call it Google job at the same time. So it literally is no extra effort. You’ve already got the blog blog posts. You’re putting it onto your social, just buying software that allows you.

[00:07:30] To also include Google in your posting and it goes out there and then Google gives you a little pat on the back for it. Um, 

[00:07:38] Paul: yeah. And you’re one of the few people doing that. That’s 

[00:07:41] Karin: ridiculous. Like everybody should be doing that 

[00:07:43] Shreya: and yeah. It gives you the biggest bang for the buck, even though it doesn’t cost you anything compared to posting on social media, you’re going to get more action driven because anytime someone’s searching for you, they’re not going to go to social media and search for you.

[00:07:56] They’re going to go through and 

[00:07:57] Karin: search for you. Yeah. 

[00:07:58] Shreya: So when you have [00:08:00] that updated, you’re going to get the biggest 

[00:08:02] Karin: factor. 

[00:08:04] Paul: I love that point. Sorry, just real quick. That point trade just made about the biggest bang for your buck is so many of our clients that we work with. They think the money’s in social media because that’s what sounds cool.

[00:08:12] So they think I’m going to make an Instagram post and it’s going to drive me all these clients. Your clients are not on Instagram, just as Ray just said they are on Google. They’re searching for attorney in Los Angeles, California attorney Seattle, Washington, attorney grand rapids, Michigan. That’s what they’re searching.

[00:08:27] They’re not searching. They’re not going to Instagram going. You know, I hope I stumbled across in a terminal and still like, people need to get that out of their system and you’re going to get a lot more quality visitors. If you make your updates. If I had to say, get rid of any kind of marketing, I would say, especially for.

[00:08:45] Do away with your social media. I know a lot of people just sweat, you know, but it’s not where your audience is. People who just 

[00:08:50] Karin: went to the car or the social media managers. They’re like you’re brand new. Yes, it’s true. Yeah. I [00:09:00] feel like when I usually recommend social media ads for firms that are doing unique things, they have a unique approach or they’ve got some nice video and some good.

[00:09:10] And it really is a supporting piece of marketing. It is not, you know, when you look at that marketing funnel, you should be doing things at different points of the funnel, the abroad, the media, you know, and this is the broad base throwing a wide net out to be top of mind. And that’s it like that is your goal.

[00:09:30] It is not conversion. Conversion happens way farther down, and that needs to happen on your website. Um, and that’s where people are searching through. Um, a minute ago you were talking also about reviews and this is a place where a lot of clients get a little, I feeling uncomfortable. And like, how do you, uh, do you guys have a system for that or a process or, or what do you, what do you say to people who either don’t have very many [00:10:00] reviews or they’re not sure about it, or, you know, how, how did they get better?

[00:10:05] Just 

[00:10:06] Shreya: by asking it. And I know you just said that you feel uncomfortable asking, but there, what happens a lot of times, as you know, you ask people and say, Hey, go to Google. Find this place. It’s a messy process, but there is a way in the back and the back end of the year. To get a direct link to 

[00:10:24] Karin: your review directly.

[00:10:25] Shreya: So a lot of times you just click on that and it takes you directly to that review spot, which lowers down a lot of, you know, hustling or like try not to look for stuff. So it makes it easier for the person who was given to review. Do you actually do it? Uh, so other you’re doing email follow-ups or so giving them a text.

[00:10:41] I went to the dentist today and I got a text, you know, saying, Hey, thanks for stopping by and make sure you guys. So no different from, you know, from a lawyer’s office. Hey, thanks for stopping by. We would love to know how our service was and how your visit was or consultation was. Right. So just through that, because you have to start that engagement piece [00:11:00] with your customers anyway, if you want to continue that, uh, bond.

[00:11:03] Right. 

[00:11:03] Karin: So make it easy 

[00:11:05] Shreya: through that engagement process. Exactly. Through that 

[00:11:07] Karin: engagement process, 

[00:11:08] Paul: we actually had, um, uh, insurance agent did this really. And they actually got their office involved and they actually put a $50 gas card on the line for their office assistance. So basically said whoever gets the most reviews, um, from past clients now, again, they were not rewarding.

[00:11:26] The reviewer, you cannot do that. That’s against the trip, but they basically gave a little incentive for the office members to say, Hey, who gets the most reviews? You can get the most reviews emailing our past clients. This person went from 16 reviews up to overwhelming. And like three, four months, you know, over time they did it, you know, staggered it like.

[00:11:45] But it was amazing how, and they were all like five star. The only four star review they got was from one of their teammates who didn’t want to make it a five star review. It was like, no, don’t ask your team [00:12:00] 

[00:12:01] Karin: the second. But for, uh, at first, when you started saying the $50 gift card, I was, I was going to get, I was getting worried for a second because I know you can’t offer, especially as an attorney, you cannot offer.

[00:12:14] Uh, especially a monetary, uh, kind of reward to your clients for a review, but that’s a genius way of kind of getting around it is to get your staff members and the people in your office. You can for sure. Give them a reward for getting those reviews. So that’s a nice, clever way of. Giving a reward and giving them that incentive without staying legal, then, you know, 

[00:12:38] Paul: staying compliant.

[00:12:39] Right. And right. And it’s also against the only is it not okay for lawyers? It’s definitely not okay for Google too, because Google’s against them too. Right. Because you can’t pay for it. 

[00:12:49] Karin: However Amazon seems to be okay with it because Amazon reviews, we’ve all seen, like their reviews are getting so suspect.

[00:12:55] And you can see in there where they’ll say, I have been compensated for this [00:13:00] review. And I was like, come on, you know, that degrades your entire review process. Like, why would you do that? 

[00:13:06] Paul: Um, 

[00:13:07] Karin: Yeah. So speaking of the trustworthy ness of the review process, going back to what you were saying a minute ago about that four star review, I have read things where if all of you reviews are five stars, people don’t believe it.

[00:13:21] So you actually, it’s probably a good thing. Uh, was it an insurance company? It was an 

[00:13:27] Paul: employee. I, one of their employees left the four-star and their logic was, they didn’t want, but it’s 

[00:13:31] Karin: true. It makes the, it makes the account look more authentic by having at least one that’s not five star or, um, especially if you have one that’s negative and especially lawyers.

[00:13:43] I mean, who’s not going to have a legal case where the opposing person is going to go on and make some claims and be mad at. And so of course the key that I always talk to my clients about is having the right response. And [00:14:00] as long as you have a good response and are professional and, you know, kind of call them out without totally calling them out, then, um, it really doesn’t degrade your account.

[00:14:12] Um, 

[00:14:13] Paul: no, and it’s, and it’s also part of the update thing. It shows Google that you’re alive know. You want to respond to those sooner than later. So if you get that, you want to respond within 24 hours, if you can help it, because that shows that even if it’s on a weekend, like that shows that you’re alive and well, it says your business is in good standing, which is going to help drive you forward.

[00:14:34] All these little things, trigger the algorithm in 

[00:14:36] Karin: your favor. We’ll go back to with a big question. I mean, why is. Uh, profile, Google a thing. Why does that directly relate to, uh, getting all this free traffic? 

[00:14:51] Paul: Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s at the top of the Google search results. So that’s, that’s one of the big reasons.

[00:14:56] I mean, it’s, uh, we, we talk about the Google three pack. It’s [00:15:00] just the way we say it and everybody’s got a different term for it. Right. Um, people strive for the six pack. We strive to. So that’s, that’s where you can get Google ads, Google SEO, and your Google, my business, Google profile now. And so it’s at the top and that’s one of the most important parts 

[00:15:17] Shreya: and it’s also the buyer intent.

[00:15:19] So if you think about it, that when someone’s searching for it, they’re actually looking for your. Yeah. So if you aren’t there they’re most likely to call you, 

[00:15:29] Karin: I mean, playing devil’s advocate for a minute. Why, why does Google allow for this free stuff? When they’ve got the pay-per-click sitting right there?

[00:15:37] Doesn’t it seem kind of crazy that Google is sort of cannibalizing their own sales. Yeah. 

[00:15:44] Shreya: Nobody does it. Yeah. That’s cause it’s old. It’s been there. It works, but 

[00:15:49] Karin: it’s old school. People want you. Yeah, 

[00:15:52] Shreya: the latest and the greatest, 

[00:15:54] Karin: no one does. And 

[00:15:55] Paul: it’s worth the other factor is yes, it does take work. Yeah.

[00:15:58] It takes work. And the other factor that [00:16:00] we see is that Google upsells you inside. So when you’re inside your Google profile, they do the one thing that we caution businesses against, which is they tell you, oh, Hey, purchase your clicks through here. And it’s just a simple like process, but basically I kind of liken it to.

[00:16:17] Calculator with huge numbers, you know, like it’s basically the easiest way to set up your, your ads, but it’s the absolute worst way. Cause you’re going to pay $20 a click right there rather than $10 a click or less, hopefully $5, click, a dollar click inside an actual Google ad setup. So they monetize that really well because they make it extremely easy.

[00:16:37] And so inside there’s that upsell feature. And then they also have inside Google my business, the Google sites, which is a page you could create. And then you’re kind of stuck. They upsell you there for a monthly fee. So like they have upsells. So that’s probably one of the other reasons that Google is like, Hey, use this because they know their numbers and they’re going to get a certain number of people that are, 

[00:16:56] Karin: and they know you’re $20.

[00:16:58] They’ve got lots of money.[00:17:00] 

[00:17:03] So have you guys had much experience then with the Google, the local service ads with any of your clients with tying that into their. 

[00:17:13] Paul: Some minimal. So like I said, the general, generally speaking, when we get better results, it’s not really driving the straight traffic, right. To the Google, my business profile.

[00:17:22] It’s actually sending it straight to their website using the advanced editor inside of Google ads because you end up spending a lot more with the Google ads version or the, the Google business profile. Yeah. Yeah. So you end up spending quite a bit 

[00:17:37] Karin: more so overall your, your best results are just coming from straight Google profile, not spending any money.

[00:17:46] And I mean, the, the short version of the story is just get out there post regularly, get some and get some good reviews, obviously. And the more competitive and, um, you know, dense your market is the harder [00:18:00] that’s going to be to compete with all the other guys. 

[00:18:03] Paul: Yeah, you do need to spend money on ads for some of the other niches, especially lawyers.

[00:18:08] They can be very competitive, but you should definitely have that in a tray of references earlier. But if there’s a spot in your Google, my business profile, fill it with something. You know, a lot of people just think like, well, this isn’t relevant to me. Still fill it because you’re, you’d be shocked. How many people leave this thing blank.

[00:18:25] You know, majority of businesses don’t fill out everything. Oh, the other, the other tip, um, which has references pictures. I can’t tell you how important pictures already are Google that doesn’t, it’s insanely important. So office pictures, pictures outside your office, building pictures of stock photos of, of a legal doc, whatever you can get away with.

[00:18:45] But, you know, staff pictures, staff, parties, uh, animals, you know, if you have animals in your office, like what. Like post that on a regular basis, even just once a month, post a new picture, update your office picture. It’s [00:19:00] amazing. How much of a difference that place? 

[00:19:02] Karin: I don’t know why they put so much weight on the imagery, but they do.

[00:19:07] And so, yeah, we say never to do a blog post without a photo. I mean, there’s a million places you can go get free stock photos, so it doesn’t have to be a piece of art. It just needs to be a photo. Uh, yeah. And I find. Other media as well. So if you’ve got some videos, you’ve got some other stuff in there.

[00:19:25] The more, the better, the more stuff, you know, it’s kind of like, Google’s a horror. And they just want to collect all the stuff, like throw it. I never thought 

[00:19:35] Shreya: about it that way.

[00:19:39] Karin: It could be a whole other show. That would be a great topic. Exactly. What is the, uh, yeah, we could do have like the whole title of the hoarders show with, you know, what like we’re bringing in. Um, but we don’t really want to clear it out because you know, Google wants all that. 

[00:19:56] Paul: They want the pictures from five years ago, [00:20:00] yeared 

[00:20:00] Karin: Google glass clean it out.

[00:20:02] It’s getting dusty. Yes. I mean, there is some, there is a lot to be said for, um, the, the photos being current and, you know, and not letting them get old and dusty too. Um, so, okay, awesome. Let’s move on to the book. SRE, as you know, our audience is full of tireless lawyers who don’t have time to read books.

[00:20:22] So what is one book that you’ve read that is. 

[00:20:28] Shreya: I the current one I’m reading and I don’t either. So I’m an audio book person, uh, the lean startup. Oh, Greece. It’s amazing. So I have a lean background. I’m a lean six Sigma black belt and was in the manufacturing field for a long time. So it’s interesting to see how those traditional Toyota production system, how to build cars.

[00:20:50] Like those concepts apply to a startup and yeah. And that’s actually how, what we applied to our marketing processes. Cause that’s what I bring to the table here. [00:21:00] Um, so it’s, it’s kind of cool to see those principles applied elsewhere. 

[00:21:03] Karin: It’s kind of the opposite of what we were talking about with hoarding, like w like cleaning it all up.

[00:21:07] And so what, um, so tell me more about it. I mean, what have you kind of taken away? And I feel like with businesses like ours, where they’re more service-based, and you’re not in a big factory, it’s hard to imagine how to take those concepts and apply it to. Um, you know, uh, not factory kind of business, 

[00:21:26] Shreya: right?

[00:21:27] Well, as a, as a service-based. The company, you still have processes, right? You’re still doing things you’re still providing value. So the first thing is to really map it out and say, where am I not providing that value? And let’s try to eliminate that step. I’m doing something I’m doing like for marketing, for example, I’m running Facebook ads, but it’s not giving me anything back.

[00:21:46] Why am I doing that? So that’s a waste that you will take out and then focus it somewhere else. Maybe on your Google. My business now. So it’s, it’s still trying to figure out where the waste 

[00:21:57] Karin: is and trying to lean out your process. That’s awesome. I feel like [00:22:00] there are so many different messages and places that everyone is trying to be, and, um, you just end up dividing your attention and dividing your budgets and, and whatever, where in the end, if you take a step back and look at it, you know, The top two or three places where the majority of your businesses coming and, you know, why are you wasting your time and money and everything on all these other things.

[00:22:28] So just throw it all in there. Yeah. Um, okay. That sounds awesome. We will obviously link to that and have that in our library. Um, and Paula. 

[00:22:39] Paul: Yeah, I’m reading uncover your difficult by miracle. Yeah. It’s such a great books about how to differentiate yourself and stand out in a noisy world. And obviously I’ve got a marketing background.

[00:22:50] Trey has got the lean background with some of these. And so, you know, that that book really speaks to me because I’m always about how can you be different in the marketplace? You know, how can you stand out? And [00:23:00] so always looking for those kinds of 

[00:23:01] Karin: things, what does he talk about? Is it like positioning kind of marketing or 

[00:23:05] Paul: yeah.

[00:23:05] How do you position yourself? Um, how do you stand out in a, you know, again, in a noisy world, like there’s so much noise, so much content out there, so, and social media noise. Differentiate yourself. And it kind of gives you a process for standing out, 

[00:23:18] Karin: you know? Well, that’s perfect when it comes to even this Google profile stuff, because, uh, you know, a lot of my clients and the people we’re talking to are in bigger city areas and they are, even if they’re getting out there and there’s not, not everybody doing the Google stuff, they are still, there’s a lot of other people doing it.

[00:23:40] And so it’s like, how do you do it differently? 

[00:23:44] Paul: Yeah. And that’s exactly it. Yeah. It’s how can you be different? And that’s, that’s the key difference maker in marketing? I mean, there’s, if you think of it, there’s hundreds of Google renders and profiles. So if you can stand out and be slightly different from the crowd with maybe it’s a picture you use, maybe it’s an angle you used or [00:24:00] something.

[00:24:00] Even the differences we talked about. Actually doing posting an update, you know, that’s a difference from you and 90% of the other attorneys or churches or organizations or businesses or whatever that you’re finding insurance agents out on Google. You’re going to be different just by doing that one little 

[00:24:17] Karin: thing.

[00:24:17] I think that’s important. I think people feel like I have to be different by completely reinventing the wheel. And I have to, you know, and it’s not maybe like you said, your difference is that you post it today and they didn’t, and that’s it. And that, and maybe that’s your deference period and that’s all you need to do.

[00:24:34] Just be consistent, be out there and be present. Um, we 

[00:24:39] like 

[00:24:39] Paul: to say consistency counts. I’m 

[00:24:41] Karin: sure you do. I’m sure everything. Yeah, exactly. I’m sure you find a way to throw that in.

[00:24:55] Okay. So on what’s one big takeaway you want listeners to get from the episode, [00:25:00] 

[00:25:01] Shreya: consistency, just stay consistent. We just talk about it, right? If you consistently see counts, like which as I said, and if you’re consistent you right. You will be like, we work with so many high influential people. Right? The one thing that we’ve noticed is there’s no difference between us and them and it’s just that they are 

[00:25:19] Karin: awesome.

[00:25:20] That’s it? Paul, what’s your big takeaway? 

[00:25:23] Paul: Yeah, the big, the big takeaway is just, you know, do, do the job like don’t and also don’t um, don’t over-complicate it. Don’t over-complicate it don’t get too excited about what’s hot. What’s new. There are not so hot marketing. That you can do like Google business profile, which has been around for years.

[00:25:42] And we talked about the different names, but it’s still a highly effective way to reach your audience when everybody else is going to teach you the newest, latest, hot trend. And there’s something to be said about consistency. And I’ve been in marketing for 23 years dating back when I was 13 and I’m still at it because I remained [00:26:00] consistent.

[00:26:00] And honestly, some of the stuff that worked 20 years ago when I was getting started with SEO is still the exact same process today. Fewer people do it because there’s all 

[00:26:09] Karin: these news, the new shiny stuff. And I say this all the time. I think people really downplay the broader definition of marketing. And I’ve even talked to people in like these small towns in Tennessee, where they are still doing yellow page stuff, because they work with other people who still have a yellow pages and there is nothing wrong with that if it works.

[00:26:31] So I can going out to networking event that is still. Going out and doing all these things because they’re not online. I think people have kind of set those aside and sort of forgotten about it. And it’s like, this is all still marketing. It all matters. And if it works, why yeah, of course keep doing it.

[00:26:53] Um, so yeah, I think that is such an important point to make. And I hope people are kind of, kind of keying in. [00:27:00] Um, so Paul counts and SREs of energy are the co-founders of marketing counts. And thank you guys so much. This was such a great conversation. I really appreciate you being here. 

[00:27:09] Paul: Thank you for having son.


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